GDG- Casualties at Gettysburg

Fri Jun 1 09:16:34 CDT 2007

Bob--

I am temperamentally with Dennis M. on this one.  My understanding is
that the ANV did not count walking wounded as he states.  As you may
know, it took days for casualty figures to get back to Lee.  

Somewhere years ago I also read about efforts Lee and his staff made to
reduce casualty figures through the above approach (this was before the
battle).  (Would you believe that years ago there was practically a
requirement on the GDG to footnote everything you said? I am taking
advantage of the fact that that practice is no longer insisted on).

Years ago, I thought I saw a closely reasoned analysis - it may have
been on the GDG in the 1990s - which argued that Lee's casualties were
probably on the order of 28,000.  But you raise an intriguing question
and one that I think might be worthy of some attention from the group.

I'll see if I can come up with more.

David    _____  

From: MBRAHMS26 at aol.com [mailto:MBRAHMS26 at aol.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 4:54 PM
To: huddleston.r at comcast.net; MBRAHMS26 at aol.com
Subject: Re: [cwsociety] Grant the Butcher: was  Rosevelt, Churchill,
Grant,
and Sherman

In a message dated 5/30/07 1:33:19 AM, huddleston.r at comcast.net writes:

Lee lost 4,637 killed, 12,391 wounded and 5,846 missing and captured,
for a
total of 22,874 or 32.6% + (their use of the "plus" sign).

So my quoted figures are correct.

Take care,

Bob

Bob,
I still have a big problem with the CSA figures cited herein.
Specifically,
the ratio of wounded to killed in the ANV seems very low vs. the AOP and
indeed for most Civil War battles.  A benchmark ratio would be about 5
or 6
to 1 wounded vs. killed.  The numbers you cite give a ratio oif  less
than 3
to 1. This is very anomalous for Civil War combat and I cannot accept
it,
especially when you consider the fact that Lee's wagon train of wounded
men
was 17 miles long!  I also find it hard to believe that the AOP,
fighting
for three days on the defensive, had several thousand more wounded than
the
ANV.

The reason for the skewed ratio is IMHO the fac that the ANV did not
include
"walking wounded" as wounded, in contrast to the AOP.  Thousand of
rebels
who were struck and required medical treatment were excluded from the
casualty lists because they were not "hors de combat".  This practice of
excluding wounded men who were not basket cases continued until the end
of
the war in the ANV and any analysis of comparative losses in the AOP and
ANV
must take this into account, as the AOP did include less seriously
wounded
men as casualties.

I also recall reading somewhere that the Union War Department had the
names
and ranks of over 12,500 Confederates captured in and around Gettysburg
during and after the battle.  This included thouands of wounded rebels
left
on the field, and is more than double the number of men Lee reported as
missing.  Does anyone know anything about this? 

I have always been suspect of losses reported under Lee's command after
reading that the ANV reported a total of 89 men missing or captured at
Second Manassas despite the fact that hundreds of rebels were marched
back
to Washington as POW's during the battle, as documented by a Confederate
officer taken prisoner  there.  

Dennis Middlebrooks

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Message: 8
Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 19:37:20 -0400
From: "Robert Lawrence" <lawrence at rwlcpa.com>
Subject: GDG- FW: GETTYSBURG NATIONAL MILITARY PARK CELEBRATES WITH A
	CIVIL	WAR MUSIC CONCERT 
To: <gettysburg at gdg.org>
Message-ID:
	<890487102A4E724799A4AB80D67CA175045F9BFD at thor.mailbox4u.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

-----Original Message-----
From: Katie_Lawhon at nps.gov [mailto:Katie_Lawhon at nps.gov] 
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 2:14 PM
Subject: GETTYSBURG NATIONAL MILITARY PARK CELEBRATES WITH A CIVIL WAR
MUSIC CONCERT 

National Park Service

 U.S. Department of the        Gettysburg            97 Taneytown Road

 Interior                      National Military     Gettysburg, PA
17325 
                               Park

                                                     717/334-1124 phone

                                                     717/ 334-1891 fax

Gettysburg National Military Park News Release

For Release: May 31, 2007
Contact:  EVANGELINA RUBALCAVA
717/ 334-1124 X430

  GETTYSBURG  NATIONAL  MILITARY  PARK  CELEBRATES  WITH  A CIVIL WAR
MUSIC CONCERT

The Wildcat Regiment Band, Civil War era musicians representing the
105th

Pennsylvania Volunteer Infantry, will perform a free concert on the
outdoor

stage of Gettysburg National Military Park's Cyclorama building on June
16

in conjunction with the 10 th Annual Gettysburg Brass Band Festival. The

early concert/workshop will begin at 11:00 a.m. The Grand Concert will

begin at 3:00 p.m. Bring blankets and lawn chairs for your seating.

A free workshop by the Wildcat Regiment Band at 11:00 a.m. on the
Cyclorama

Outdoor Stage will explore "The American Brass Movement: Bands and

Bandmasters of the American Civil War" and will feature original musical

instruments of the period.

The 105th Pennsylvania Volunteer Infantry Regiment was recruited in 1861

from the "Wildcat" congressional district made up in part by Indiana and

Jefferson Counties. With Bandmaster Bruno J. Pino conducting, this
modern

re-creation of the Band utilizes original instruments and reproduction

hand-made uniforms.

Also performing under the dome at the Pennsylvania Memorial, in
conjunction

with the Gettysburg Brass Band Festival, will be the Band of the
California

Battalion. On June 16 at 7:00 p.m. this 20-piece band, having traveled
all

the way from California, will present a 60-minute program on music

Americana. They will also performances at Rupp House History Center on
June

15 at 7:00 p.m.

For more information contact Evangelina Rubalcava, (717) 334-1124 x430,
or

go to the website: www.gettysburgbrassbandfestival.org

 -NPS-

Add Photos:

(Embedded image moved to file: pic07372.jpg)

Band of the California Battalion

(Embedded image moved to file: pic08563.jpg)

Wildcat Regiment Band

------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 20:34:46 EDT
From: Batrinque at aol.com
Subject: Re: GDG- FW: ANV Casualties at GB
To: gettysburg at arthes.com
Message-ID: <c3a.13034901.3390c3a6 at aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

A year or two back I put some effort into better understanding the
likely  
Confederate casualty numbers at Gettysburg and concluded, somewhat
shakily, that 
 there were probably something like 5000 KIA and DOW (the line between
many 
KIA  and DOW is arbitrary at best, but maybe a 60/40 split comes close
to being 
 accurate -- making maybe 3000 outright KIA and perhaps close to 13,000 
wounded,  of whom maybe 2000 subsequently died of wounds).  

Bruce  Trinque
Amston, CT

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Message: 10
Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 21:01:02 -0400
From: "Tom Ryan" <pennmardel at mchsi.com>
Subject: RE: GDG- FW: ANV Casualties at GB
To: "GDG" <gettysburg at arthes.com>
Message-ID: <FEEOKINCPINMNKHDCDCEGEFJDDAA.pennmardel at mchsi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"

<<Army of the Potomac - Engaged strength 93,921 Total losses 23,055 -
		Broken down KIA-3155, W- 14351, Missing/Captured - 5369

Army of Northern Virginia Engaged Strength 71,699 Total losses-23,231
		Broken Down KIA-4708, W-12693, Missing/Captured - 5830

24.7 is the total casualties for the AOP and for the AnV 32.4%. >>

Would imagine that a calculation of casualty figures for the entire
Gettysburg Campaign would add significantly to these numbers.  There
were
sizable losses at Brandy Station, Loudoun Valley, and Williamsport (well
over 1,000 combined at each of these three), with lesser numbers at
Westminster, Hanover, Hunterstown and a few other places including along
the
retreat route, especially among the cavalry.

Tom

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Message: 11
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2007 01:15:54 +0000
From: wolfduke38 at comcast.net
Subject: GDG- Let The Muster Begin
To: gettysburg at arthes.com
Message-ID:

<060120070115.22810.465F734A000B3DB20000591A2215567074C8CC0A059A0B000401
99 at comcast.net>

Content-Type: text/plain

Setting the final pieces together and will be heading out at 5a.m,
hoping to be in The Burg at around 8 o'clock in the morning. Look
forward to meeting you all. I will be hitting my favorite morning stop
upon arrival and that is Dunlop's so if anyone is in the area and is as
hungry as I know I will be Look for the Guy with a Plate of Cream
Chicked Beef : ) on toast. Safe travels to all and see you Tomorrow.

            Ed

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