GDG- GETTYSBURG THE SECOND DAY
Char & Charlie
rvn4fun at att.net
Thu Sep 7 20:06:15 CDT 2006
Hi, Laurie we are way off topic here but I can't help but add a response.
I can't say I agree with you here. Contrary to what some
would have us believe, the 13 colonies were never separate sovereign
governments.
[Char & Charlie ]
Each colony had its own government. Included a governor such as Hutchinson
in Massachusetts and Dunsmore in Virginia appointed by the Crown. Each
colony had a Legislature or court as Burgess in Virginia and Councils
similar to the Senate today. And many colonies had representation in
England such as Ben Franklin who lived in England for 18 years before
returning in 1775. There were many attempts to get colonies to agree
beginning in 1754 as the colonies met in Albany NY to discuss how to meet
the French Indian threat and Franklin's ideas put into what was called the
Albany Plan. Much of this plan formed the foundation to the Declaration of
Independence as did the Suffolk Resolves and the Virginia Resolves. But
interests differed regionally and there was little interest in uniting or
being anything other than a colony of Britain.
In 1774, before they even contemplated actual
independence from Britain, who governed all of them, they formed a
Continental Congress to which, eventually, was delegated such powers
as the right to raise a Continental army and treat with foreign
powers, as well as the English Government itself.
[Char & Charlie ]
The first Continental congress did not accomplish much other that to agree
to boycott English goods because of the closing of Boston harbor by the
Crown and to agree that if Massachusetts militia was attacked by the British
all the colonies would support them. It was dominated by Samuel Adams who
wanted to change the system of being ruled by a small number of elite
wealthy minority. The second CC in 1775 did establish Washington as CIC
after Concord and sent him to Boston but little else with individual
colonies militias providing the bulk of the army. And Washington would beg
and plead for the next eight years for money from the congress to pay for
the army. The desertion rates rivaled those in the CW. By the way I
consider the RW as the first civil war in the US. The loyalist and those
that did not chose Independence exceeded those that did. The population of
Boston changed by what military controlled the town.
At no time did any
state send its own representatives to London or Paris, etc. After
1776, the Continental Congress, while not strong, nonetheless
operated as a Federal government. When the British gave up their
supreme power over the colonies in 1783, the Articles of
Confederation were passed to replace British sovereignty. In that
document it stated that 'The Union is perpetual'. That is pretty
definite language. The Articles were too weak, so 'In order to form a
more perfect Union' the Constitution was created and passed to
strengthen the Federal government.
[Char & Charlie ]
The Articles did indeed leave much to the states. And with a large debt
from the war it was evident that the states were not going to pay off the
debt and the US could not get anywhere as a nation without the ability to
pay off that debt. The issues of commerce, expansion west, money could not
be resolved without a central government and the Articles did not provide
but for central control of common issues. Washington, Madison, Hamilton and
other recognized that and lead the effort for a Constitution providing for a
central government.
Certainly, this was not perfect
and the slavery issue was not resolved until the ACW, but a Union was
most definitely in place. However, it is one thing to declare a
country and another to make it into a nation. That takes time. I
think that before the ACW you will find plenty of instances where
citizens of every state, north and south, put state before Federal
government - but this slowly changed as people began to identify with
the national state as Americans.
But there is another thing here as well. I truly believe that
the idea of identification with a specific state is overstated.
[Char & Charlie ]
Yes, but how many professional soldiers went with their state and not with
the federal government. I think you are right that slavery was used by a
region to shout States rights as the governments attempted to rid our
country of the institution.
By
1860 there were 34 states, an increase of 21, and if we examine the
muster rolls of both sides, you will note how many of those folks in
the western states were born elsewhere. Lee had strong family and
social ties to Virginia, but what of those many Americans who had
migrated to Alabama, Illinois, Texas, Kansas, and so forth. Can we
say they really identified with their state as a primary loyalty, or
do we really see a sectional loyalty here - Slave vs free. Indeed,
the ties were quite murky as we see so many Southerners supporting
the Federal government and, at the same time, many border state folks
going south even though their state stayed with the Union. I see
people talking about loyalty to family, section, way of life, and
even to the Confederacy, but few saying "I'm going to fight for
Alabama".
Finally, there was always a minority, a la Calhoun, who felt
that the states SHOULD overrule the Federal government, but they were
in the minority when the Constitution was ratified and never had any
legal basis for their contention, as James Madison and Andy Jackson
clearly pointed out in 1832.
Best,
Laurie Schiller
>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>
>
>Just before the Constitution the old individual colonies were governed by
>the Articles of Confederation which was basically 13 governments. The
South
>always put states before federal government. There was never a PERFECT
>UNION, there was always tension from individual state interests within the
>United States. Just look at how the southern states blocked any threats to
>Slavery during the Constitution Convention. So the northern founding
father
>caved to the real threat of southern states going their own way in 1787.
>And their threats continued until 1860 when lead by SC and made good on 80
>years of threats.
>
>Char & Charlie
>RV'ing the USA
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com [mailto:gettysburg-bounces at arthes.com]
>On Behalf Of Stephen/Leonida H
>Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 8:58 AM
>To: gettysburg at arthes.com
>Subject: GDG- GETTYSBURG THE SECOND DAY
>
>Esteemed GDG Member Contributes:
>
>
>there is a concept which i find , at the age of 65 , hard to understand. i
>was born in THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA first and CALIFORNIA second.
>where does the idea start? our founding fathers wrote the preamble to the
>constitution WE THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES IN ORDER TO FORM A MORE
>PERFECT UNION ... yet we still have in 1863 people willing to die for
>VIRGINIA or ALABAMA or one of the other 9 states in rebellion aginst the
>central gov.. within both armies almost 100% of the officers were trained
>at WEST POINT. in command of ANV we have ROBERT E LEE,aka JESUS CHRIST,
who
>
>graduates from the POINT without a gig ,how anal is that.
>the AOP is led by GEORGE GORDEN MEADE, who after his graduation served a
>year in the army resigned to take up civil engineering. he fails at that
>and reups earing a brevert in mexico.
>
>during a second invasion of the north,LEE blunders into gettysburg. after
>the first day where he comes out smelling like a rose, LEE has to answer
>the age old question, whadda i do now, coach?
>on the morning of the second day LEE finds himself with 2 reluctant corps
>commanders, EWELL and LONGSTREET. EWELL, up to now, serving under
STONEWALL
>
>JACKSON was told when to pee and poo gets descritionary order to push those
>people off that hill, if practible. say what? LONGSTREET on the other hand
>wants to fight a defensive battle . LEE'S attitude of giving orders and
>then standing back is horse manure. it simply means if we win i get the
>credit .if we lose its not my fault.
>any comments so far? while walking out after seeing gettysburg i heard a
>southern accent saying DAMN YANKEE'S WON AGAIN.
>
>
>
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--
Dr. Laurence Dana Schiller Civil War First Person Impressions
Maitre d'Armes William Bradshaw, Co. F 2nd WI
Head Fencing Coach George Hammitt, Co. H 104th Ill
Department of History
Northwestern University
Commissioner, Midwest Fencing Conference
Midwest VP, US Fencing Coaches' Association
Vice-Chair USFA Illinois Division
Lds307 at northwestern.edu
847-491-4654
FAX 847-467-1406
Official Sports site: http://nusports.ocsn.com/
Student web site: http://groups.northwestern.edu/fencing/
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